Exaggerated apophaticism

Dear friends,
 
In our time, among many so-called Christians, I feel a strong non-Christian tendency in the attraction to higher consciousness, non-duality, awareness and so forth. Since some time, there is as it were a paradigm shift going on from traditional teachings, in conformity with the church, to teachings that stand more or less in relation to other spiritual traditions under the influence of interreligious dialogue and science (f.e. psychology).
 
It is certainly good to hold to what is beneficial and true in other traditions: "The majority of the 'great religions' which have sought union with God in prayer have also pointed out ways to achieve it. Just as the Catholic Church rejects nothing of what is true and holy in these religions, neither should these ways be rejected out of hand simply because they are not Christian. On the contrary, one can take from them what is useful so long as the Christian conception of prayer, its logic and requirements are never obscured. It is within the context of all of this that these bits and pieces should be taken up and expressed anew…" - Excerpt from "Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church on some aspects of Christian Meditation" by Cardinal Ratzinger (Pope Benedict XVI) 
 
I am also convinced that some teachings of the church in the past were rather rigid such as: 'There isn't any grace outside the church' (Latin: nulla gratia extra catholicam). Vaticanum II however opened windows and doors to other traditions. When I compare the writings of people like Franciscus of Sales or Thomas a Kempis with f.e. in our days Thomas Keating or Anthony de Mello or even David Steindl Rast, it seems I am entering into another world. It is therefore that I am so interested in anthropology. I think that the desert fathers, but also other spiritual traditions (such as yogi's) had a good understanding of the complexity of a human being.
Teilhard de Chardin combined evolution with Christian faith and someone like Cardinal Newman spoke of the evolution of dogma (ascent of truth). But I sense that the uniqueness of the figure of Christ (especially His redemption at the cross) is more and more getting blurred in our days by a more universalist or monistic spirituality.
 
Apophaticism can be truly Christian as in Dionysius Areopagiticus, Gregory of Nyssa or the Cloud of Unknowing, Eckhart and even John of the Crioss, but 'exaggerated' apohaticism as in the writings of f.e. Willigis Jäger and Anthony de Mello cannot be called Christian anymore. God is here a void and the redemption of Christ at the cross without meaning. Since evil is simply ignorance, there are no objective rules of morality. So everything is allowed, because good and evil are simply mental evaluations imposed upon reality.
 
As people like Ken Wilber, Eckhart Tolle, Deepak Chopra (see his -sorry- stupid book 'The Third Jesus'), Andrew Cohen, Jim Marion... and many many other advaitic non-dualists expose, it seems Jesus is just one of many great enlightened teachers (see Buddha, Lao-Tse, Zarathustra, Mohammed...). I used to adore the writings of f.e. Anthony de Mello before because of his clever stories, but now I urge Christians to read this useful notification, whatever they say about the church and it's leaders nowadays:
 
http://www.ourladyswarriors.org/dissent/demello.htm !!!
 
Another essential discussion is this one:
 
http://shalomplace.com/res/psr-marion.pdf !!!
   
Greetings,
Fred 
  

Dear Fred . . .
I too,
believe the paths to 'God' are infinite
with love and grace . . .
sparrow
♥

everything counts... ♥

I too, believe the paths to 'God' are infinite

 
Dear Fred, I agree with the above quote from Sparrow. If you go back far enough in the Christian records you will find it not dissimilar to any other faith, and certainly less rigid.
 
The way forward is to find what is similar...not what is different.
 
With Love, Jude

Love is the only way

http://shalomplace.org/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/18910625/m/76110806
 
Greetings,
Fred

Dear Jude and Sparrow,
 
I understand what you mean, but I don't want to forget the redemption of Christ at the cross. This is biblically very clear: creation, incarnation, passion, cross, resurrection, pentecost. In short: what the credo says I believe to be the ultimate truth. I think it is also clear from the history and tradition of the church that the mystics and holy people held fast to this faith.
Henry le Saux (Abhishiktananda) had both deep mystical experiences: non-dual advaitic and trinitarian love.
The former belongs to our nature, our state of being. The latter fulfills and goes beyond nature and is grace. Contemplation is in this sense much more than being conscious, aware, grateful... but a God-given grace.
Most of the people with discernment will tell you that there are more differences between the spiritual traditions than similarities. It is all too easy to speak of the ultimate mystical core as one and the same. I'm sorry but I feel like this...  
 
Greetings in Christ,
Fred  
 
Again: go to =)http://shalomplace.org/eve/forums
 

The way forward is to find what is similar...not what is different.

 
Dear Fred,
I respect totally your beliefs, and these are mine.
 
With Love, Jude

Love is the only way

"Our mental images or artwork -- or systematic logical images -- can point us in the right direction if they reflect God and if we remember that they are not fully accurate pictures of God. The apophatic approach looks at each thing and consciously reminds itself, "Neither is this image fully like God." Ignorance leads to humility and to continual striving for better knowledge. Assumption of knowledge has the opposite effect."
This quote is from your link dear Fred . . .
I believe it is from Bernadette Roberts,
but I could be wrong.
I think it wonderfully expresses
a part of our process
with love . . .
sparrow
♥

everything counts... ♥

Dear Sparrow,
 
I agree that matters concerning 'consciousness' and insight in illusions we permanently create are important.
That's why I am practicing yoga and have made an appointment with a Pesso-therapist. However, we tend to forget that God has revealed Himself in His Word and above in all in His only Begotten Son Jesus Christ.
So I am convinced that apophaticism has to be kep in balance with kataphaticism.
 
Greetings,
Fred 

Dear Jude And Sparrow,
 
Some things regarding yoga again. Let us talk about this process if you want to.
 
Every day, morning and evening, I am practicing my yoga with the help of a CD.
On Tuesdays there is a group session. I feel things are slowly changing. I am physically more flexible, although on the other hand (I don't know why) I tend to eat more than before. Is this a way of filling up a void? For years my weight was 65 kg, since some years more than 80 kg! I think one of the reasons is my taking medication (xanax retard and some seroquel). I wish to gradually phase out this medication, but this is difficult. I also notice that sometimes there are very weird sensations of insecurity (f.e. before the repetitions of the play we will perform within one week). Then I notice always the same patternes of the wounded child, especially after work when I am alone. And what is going on in my mind has to do with my father, the past or the future. At these moments the pain in my chest is very heavy and sharp.
On the other hand, I sometimes experience small sensations in my body of more relaxation and space. Today I even feel tired , something I very seldom am, because of my inner 'stepping on the gaz'.
Can you give me more concrete information of your own experiences with yoga in dealing with unresolved emotions and thought patterns.
And what about pranayama? At first I ahd a lot of pain the day after practicing pranayama, but now things are going better. I feel this is a very profound practice.
Mentally/emtionally, there is still a lot of confusion, emptiness, isolation, being unhappy and lonely... Did yoga help you to go through such a process? And how?
 
PAX,
Fred

Dear Fred,
I have to confess to not keeping up my Yoga practise...not because I didn't want to do it, but because I lack willpower and the will to keep doing things I know are helping me. Human beings are complicated!!
 
However, during the years when I did practise regularly I was healthier, more relaxed, physically stronger and emotionally stronger than all the years before or since. In fact, although my practise has been sporadic of late, I have never gone back to being as unhealthy as I was before I started Yoga, so its effects don't wear off.
 
The effects of the breathing have stayed with me, and I can quickly use the breathing techniques if needed. Yoga also made me more aware of my diet. (Somehow it has a subtle effect on us to choose more beneficial foods and lifestyles)
It also helps us to cope with emotional problems and keep emotions stable.
 
Yoga helped me recover from chronic anxiety and a poor digestion, and helped me become less afraid of life.
 
You are noticing how it makes one stronger physically. This takes a little while before you notice it.
Yes, practise does cause pain the next day at first. That just means you are using muscles you have not been using. The chest is a mass of tiny as well as large muscles. The breathing techniques work all of them.
 
Keep going Fred......it's working!
 
 
I have recently started doing regular practise again,
and...........I can still touch the floor in a standing forward bend!
 
Blessings,
Jude

Love is the only way

Dear Jude,
 
Thanks for the honest response! I perfectly understand what you mean. It is not easy to have the willpower to keep doing things, although they are benefical. Or is the resistance of the ego playing a role here?
I notice the same thing in my life. Smoking is a bad habit, but it is difficult to omit this one little cigar everyday!
It is consoling to hear (again) that yoga is very helpful emotionally. Me too I have this chronic anxiety and fear of life. I guess I have a firm 'persona' (mask). People won't see that I am suffering. Mostly I am the friendly, helpful, even funny guy, but behind this façade there lie unhappiness, loneliness, judgment and disapproval.  
Many times, I ask myself whether I don't expect too much from life. I feel guilty about not being able to more appreciate and love people, life, circumstances.
This is surely a website on a topic which is something I want to grow in: gratefulness. Bt it is so difficult to be grateful with this chronic pain! When I see people around me, I ask myself how they manage to look/be (!?) so happy. Thomas à Kempis and many others spoke of life as a vale of tears. I wonder whether they are not right. I guess I am one of those tragic figures like van Gogh, Rilke, Dostojevski, Rothko and many other artists.
I find this serenity prayer very beautiful:
God grant me the serenity To accept the things I cannot change; Courage to change the things I can; And wisdom to know the difference. I always have the impression that there is not that (spiritual) evolution/change (St. Benedict called it 'converio morum') in my life I always hoped for, but maybe we cannot see this of our selves. People around me however sometimes point at it...
My deepest longing is for peace and inner calm and more love. My deepest mental conception is: 'Am I good enough?' or 'Am I loving enough?'.
If you want me to send a rather extensive 'letter' I once wrote on all this, please write to freddy.delameilleure@jongerenwelzijn.be
 
PAX,
Fred   

http://shalomplace.org/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/18910625/m/62310975
 
!!!
 
Fred

Dear Fred,
Please don't take this as a judgement on you!!
I do firmly believe that what we concentrate, or dwell on, is what we will get more of.
 
If we dwell on our weaknesses (Oh, I am so bad....life is so awful) that is what we will get more of.
We all do it! However, I have seen in my own life that this affirming of what we don't want in our lives, really does bring us more of it.
We all have days when we don't feel well, when we may be very depressed and can't see beyond that. At these times we tend to really wallow in our misfortune. (Poor me!)
I believe that if we try to get out of the habit of concentrating on what we don't want and start concentrating on what we do want instead, this brings change.
This isn't denial. All our feelings are valid and should be respected. I believe in accepting how we are today, but how we are feeling isn't who we are, or necessarily who we want to be.
Concentrate on who you want to be and how you want to feel.
 
with Love,
Jude

Love is the only way

Quote by Phil St. Romain:
 
Following up on other discussions about nonduality, Bernadette Roberts, etc., I am hoping that this topic will explore what we mean by Apophatic Christian spirituality, and how it is different from the apophatic mysticisms we find in Buddhism, Taoism, etc.

But what do we mean by "apophatic Christian spirituality?" See [link=http://weekendfisher.blogspot....ch-of-mysticism.html]http://weekendfisher.bl.......ch-of-mysticism.html[/link] for a good introduction.

quote:
Apophatic Mysticism is rooted in humility about what we can know and the realization that all of our systems are, after all, completely unable to do justice to an understanding of God. Its basic premise is that, no matter how great the human mind, it simply cannot grasp God in all His fullness, all His glory, all His might. This view is grounded in Scripture, reason, and the history of the church. Scripture's teaching that we do not yet know fully also has implications for systematic theologies.

quote:
Our mental images or artwork -- or systematic logical images -- can point us in the right direction if they reflect God and if we remember that they are not fully accurate pictures of God. The apophatic approach looks at each thing and consciously reminds itself, "Neither is this image fully like God." Ignorance leads to humility and to continual striving for better knowledge. Assumption of knowledge has the opposite effect.

quote:
If the "unknowing" approach becomes an exercise in denying what we know then it has gone too far. If it remains an exercise in acknowledging that "we know in part, we prophesy in part ... now we see through a glass, darkly" then it is a healthy corrective to our boasting of having a complete knowledge (or complete "systematic theology" if you'd rather).

That's a good intro. I'll continue the reflection below.
  Posts: 7539 | Location: Wichita, KS | Registered: 09 August 2001 Phil
Posted 01 March 2009 04:52 PM Hide Post Apophatic spirituality is often called "negative spirituality," or "negative theology," in that it seeks to know God as the mystery beyond words, images, symbols, rituals, etc. "Kataphaic spirituality/theology" encounters God through these means and so affirms positive knowledge about God -- that we really can say something about who God is, how God operates, etc. In Christianity, our tradition of revelation lends itself to a strong kataphatic emphasis. Christ has come and has made God visible to us; we celebrate this ritually and sacramentally; we sing about it, write books, read Scripture, etc. -- and encounter God in some manner through these means and actions. "Positive" knowledge.

Apophatic spirituality and theology stands as a corrective to this, reminding us that although we do indeed know something positive, there is a great deal more than we don't know -- that the mystery of God goes far beyond what we do know, and that even our most exalted dogmas are a stammering rife with temptations to think that we understand something that goes far beyond our understanding.

In short, kataphatic spirituality/theology orients our human faculties to the God who has been revealed, and enables us to encounter God through the medium of creation, liturgy, art, Sacrament, sacred word, etc. Apophatic spirituality invites us to be open to encounter the God whose mystery goes beyond all these visible, tangible means of knowledge. Obviously, this is not meant to be a matter of either/or; one needs both. An extreme emphasis on the kataphatic aspect leads to fundamentalism, dogmatism, and egoic arrogance concerning the things of God; extreme apophaticism leads to quietism, gnosticism, and usually theological pluralism.
  Posts: 7539 | Location: Wichita, KS | Registered: 09 August 2001 Ignored post by Phil posted 01 March 2009 04:52 PM Show Post Phil
Posted 01 March 2009 05:00 PM Hide Post Traditionally, Christian contemplation has been considered an example of apophatic mysticism. Why? Because it gives testimony to an encounter with God that is not mediated through active engagement with word, symbol, etc., though it is often experienced during or after such activities. Rather, contemplation is the experience of God communicating with us "spirit-to-spirit," as it were, in a depth of our being beyond the activities of the faculties. It is pure grace because we cannot reach God in this manner through the exercise of our will or intellect; it is God who reaches to us. We might or might not experience activity in our faculties -- even distractions -- but these are no impediments to contemplation unless we close ourselves off at the level of the will to God's self-communication. Contemplation does leave us free to do so; it is not a matter of become possessed by God over-and-against our permission.
  Posts: 7539 | Location: Wichita, KS | Registered: 09 August 2001 Ignored post by Phil posted 01 March 2009 05:00 PM Show Post Phil
Posted 01 March 2009 05:10 PM Hide Post A common error one finds in the history of the tradition and even in this day uses this fallacious logic:

1. Apophatic spirituality holds that God exists beyond all thoughts, concepts, images, etc.
2. As long as I am having thoughts, images, etc., I cannot really be experiencing God, or contemplation.

This line of reasoning is false because:
a. We do encounter God through kataphatic means.
b. Christian contemplative experience isn't premised on having no thoughts, images, etc. in one's consciousness, but on God's gracious offer of contemplative graces and our consent to receive such when offered.

Unfortunately, points 1 and 2 are widely taught in linkage, and if pursued too vigorously, they lead to quietism and a kind of radical apophaticism that eventually makes no distinction between Christian apophatic mysticism and the apophatic spiritualities found in other religious traditions -- especially Buddhism and advaitan Hinduism. Apophatic spiritual practice becomes, then, a matter of striving to vanquish all thoughts, concepts, reflections, etc. as though the absence of such activities is either a pre-requisite to apophatic mystical experience, or the mystical experience itself. To my thinking, without the gift of contemplative grace, the consequence of such practice leads primarily to the refinement of one's own spiritual awareness, acute perception, and a deep sense of the interconnectedness of creation -- enlightenment-like mysticism.

- - -

OK, there, now, I've set the stage for questions, discussion, disagreements, etc. I'm hoping this thread wil

It is not easy to have the willpower to keep doing things, although they are benefical. Or is the resistance of the ego playing a role here?

Yes dear Fred . . .
I think so.
 
Here is a quote from "the Translucent Revolution" by Arunja Ardagh.
I thought you might find it useful,
or at least thought-provoking . . .
 
"(People we often see as 'enlightened')...have been transformed in a way that does not neatly fit the maps and models we have inherited. Nor do they appear to be on a trajectory toward anything described by the old maps. Rather than renouncing the world, they are involved, active, and participating. Rather than aspiring to celibacy, they delight in sex more than ever. Rather than conforming to the ways that have been handed down through patriarchy, they embody a radical feminization of the spiritual life. And rather than being holy, pious, or 'spiritual' in any external way, their most easily distinguishable quality is a wild sense of humor about themselves and their lives. They are honest, deep, remarkably wise, and at the same time remarkably human and humble about their weaknesses. They are mostly 'schtick-free.'
 
We either need new maps, or no maps at all. And we need a new vocabulary. These people are not 'seekers'; they are more interested in the present moment than any future state. They are not 'followers'; their spirituality is more grounded in direct experience than in imitation or belief. And they laugh out loud if you call them 'enlightened.' Rather than claiming attainment, they seem to have stepped off the hamster wheel of needing to attain anything at all.
 
I call them 'translucents'. They have been affected so deeply by a moment of radical awakening that their relationship to who they are and what this life is about has been permanently transformed. The process is evolutionaery and endless rather than aimed at a fixed point or result."
 
Dear Fred . . .
I think that truly we are good enough . . .
all of us . . .
in whatever moment we find ourselves
we just don't know it
with love . . .
sparrow

everything counts... ♥

Hi Freddy,
Wow...what a great dialog going on here.
 
This is something that comes up for me as we seek our own union with our creator in whatever way we do. First we who ackowledge ignorance of our limits of knowing, assumptions etc on life free ourselves up to new knowledge and experience. This also creates at least for me a sense of uncertainty. As I have aged I experience my growth and knowledge and am truly humble by the learning experience of each year....the older I get the more shoreline of ignorance I acknowledge in my own intellect. So to remain open minded, open hearted and seek wisdom and union with God with disernment is part of the process. Each of us has unique gifts talents and experiences which we often times resonate with different approaches better than others. I think this is a facter when determining which way is best for our own unique spiritual growth.
I do believe we all need in some way a balance and practical approach to ground to and also some simple rules to keep us from being taken off the path of what truly is our own personal goals, aspirations within our own spiritual path. A baseline I guess would be a good description I guess. A love of God is a gift I recieved as I was raised Catholic....for me the persistant discussions on dogma ...religious negativity that so many get caught up with completely distorts the actual blessed gifts that are so simply present. This one and most beautiful thing helps the questioning sometimes fall all away. The intellictual process still is there but there remains this presence, this true essence of the message Jesus, the bible, etc. Sometimes simplicity can help us so much.  For me personally the LOVE OF GOD.....keeps my focus and stops the innate and natural activity of being all over the place and over thinking that blurs the actual
blessed gift of this one and most important spritual oppurtunity. It allows me to feel this LOVE and not be sidetracked off centered and pulled away from what is the most important focus...period. The deeper union between me and God and of course is then extended to others naturally and simply. Its just there...certain  practises keep me centered on this, prayer and gratitude, kindness to others. As we expand our learning about other religious practices it deepens our connections within our own faith. At times we may get in crisis when this information seems to challenge our belief structures along our exploration of wisdom and knowledge....yet if we keep our focus on this ONE tremendous gift....our love of God and this connection it can keep us in a safe from some of the uncertainty senses that come up. I am a rock....comes up.
And then we can seek within these other religious groups or communities a foundation of toleranc and respect for their spiritual identities. I think Mother Theresa puts it so beautifully we are children of God unique and special unto him. Her love and dedication and the unique way in which God guided her and her personal calling.  Each saint lives when you learn about them show us this personal and unique union within the gifts and also weaknesses they each indivdually worked within. It is true of all of Fred. Sometimes we just need to allow the settling of this into our hearts and learn to appreciate all with in the different approaches available to all of us. As we keep certain principles high in our regard we grow in our union with God. It is not that one is bad....its just not a fit for our unique union with God. Often what we percieve as negative process is us actually gaining through the acknowledge of different experience. We have similarities and differences all of us. There are different cultural constructs developed in this world of people. We have common bonds and also sometimes the ever difficult differences. We have adversities...trials, etc. We have strengths and weaknesses. We often get along better in certain ways that are different from our brothers and sisters in this world. This is a certainty. If we are lead to a place for healing something in our lives. Respect and hold that in reverence. It may be God leading you to an inner peace/tolerance/wisdom/lesson or a prayer you so whole heartedly are praying right now for. That is why so often you may here this...it is right in front of you.
At times this can make a person crazy inside....questioning where??? That's why quieting the mind is prevalent in spiritual practise. And also there is those who benefit more with contemplation and more activity. We are unique....knowing ourselves makes for an easier way....it helps us to choose more affectively our way in God and accept unique ourselves, our identity our blessed gifts. As we learn to appreciate others so too do we gain appreciation for our selves.
 
I want to thank you for sharing here on this forum. I have learned so much from your journey to deeper understanding and questioning the process and paths to God and healing. You have given me a such blessings. Thank you. Diane
 
PS...My experience with yoga has given me personally a deeper connection through meditation/contemplation/breath practices and readying the body for deeper union with God. This is a central focus in my life. It has also given me fresh eyes within my own religious preference of being a Catholic. Helped me have deeper appreciation in so many ways. It has also healed me physically too...were pain existed before it is gone now....I gained a greater personal understanding of awareness to many faucets of my life. I was given gifts by many...among them loving kindness and understanding. It was part of a prayer answered by God for me personally. I will tell you I was going through many trials in life and I prayed for peace and tolerance a lot. I asked specifically for tolerance and a place which had this spiritual respect for all of creation. I was surprised when I ended up being lead not only to my church, and believers but a temple of World Peace of Yogananda's which has represented there all the religions. Ghanghi's ashes are there too. I also in the same day went to Ghetty's Art Museum and low and behold was a special art exhibition (first time ever) on Religious art icons from St. Catherine's below the  Mount that is suppose to be where Mose's received the Ten Commandments. This church had remained isolated and still uses candles....these Holy Icons was a gift to experience for me. I also attended a lecture that evening with the professor who had work so deligently on studying them.  I could go on and on about the gifts I received from God that one day alone.....So be open to the way God speaks to you in your life. Notice the gifts he gives to you daily, in small ways....in big ways and all that's in between. Practice being aware and noticing Thy beautiful blessed gifts from God he sends unto you each day.

Grateful to be here!
What a gift and connection builder!
Love and Gratitude,
Love who You Are

Alleluia! Diane...I just had to say that!! I loved what you wrote.
 
Love,
Jude

Love is the only way

Thank you Diane,
so much for sharing this with us.
It so beautifully expresses how completely whole
this kind of inclusive embracing of spirituality
can make us . . .
this is where God, or Presence or Source is truly calling to our hearts . . .
this is what God's Love and Grace are all about.
I feel this with every fiber of my being.
Thank you!  for taking the time to write this
with love . . .
sparrow

everything counts... ♥

Dear friends,

How much I have been looking as in a mirror while reading these powerful exchanges on spiritual pride: http://shalomplace.org/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/18910625/m/94410076!!!
It's more and more clear to me that I have been (and somehow still am,... God tells me...) a 'spiritual bypasser' for most of my life. I am practicing this yoga since some time now and the deep rooted wounded patterns of thoughts, emotions and behaviour are becoming extremely clear to me these days. The pain is awful as it has been for years but I succeed more to stay with it or enter into it through yoga and meditation.
What I wish to share. Last Friday, again I went to this pilgrimage place here in Belgium, where a 89 years old woman receives visions of Christ and mother Mary since the early 1980's.
I cannot explain what went through me. It cannot be but spiritual pride or is it an exaggerated (right?) 'discernment' (or judgment)?
When I saw and heard those 'simple-minded' people pray rosary after rosary and noticed the fear, the distorted moralistic perceptions of spirituality and images of God ('How much do I have to read in the Bible each day?', 'What do I have to do in order to...?' and so forth)behind all this (or is this also my disorted perception?), I felt so suffocated that I made the decision not to go to these places anymore. I think from my rather rigid character I have for far too long attracted spiritual paths like this (Jehovah's Witnesses, Evangelicals, Pentecostals, Charismatics, ...). 
As I said before, the here famous benedictine monk Anselm Grün speaks of a 'spirituality from below' and a 'spirituality from above'. The desert fathers (see the little story about it) didn't speak about the things from above, but of the things of below (their inner struggles and vipassana-like investigation of thoughts, emotions and behaviour)! Friday, I was so overwhelmed by almost uncontrollable judging thoughts (demons?) that the pain in my chest in the bus during coming back was almost unbearable! I certainly have to face the fact (something I suppose many Christians, who escape in some kind of spiritual practice don't see) that it is hard work to come at an integration of unresolved issues and our shadow side. I always that Jesus or the Holy Spirit would heal me... 
On the other hand, someone like father Dwight Longenecker [link=http://www.amazon.com/Praying-...necker/dp/159276424X]http://www.amazon.com/P...-...necker/dp/159276424X[/link] wrote about the inner healing that might come through praying the rosary! Does this then depend on how you pray it, devotional-outside-directed versus contemplative-inside-directed (see Thomas Keating)?

Greetings in Christ,
Fred
 
PS Sorry if I am falling in repititions time and again. I suppose this is still somehow a pattern of running in circles without getting anywhere. But I begin to understand more and more what you kind people and others before try to tell me since a long time. 

Dear Fred,
I think what you are discovering is your own discernment.
What is right for some people may not be right for you or others, and you have discovered that this particular type if retreat is not the right thing for you.
 
Obviously we all suffer from pride and its consequences! We all feel superior at some stage or other, and as we know, "pride comes shortly before a fall" or a humbling experience at least.
 
I'm really pleased the Yoga is helping you. As I said, it takes some time of practice before you notice any real improvement. The fact that it helps you deal with your pain is a big step forward, and may, in time, see an improvement in pain levels, or even stop it altogether. I really hope so.
 
What ever, I believe you are moving in the right direction Fred,
 
Blessings,
Jude

Love is the only way