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RE: BOOKS for which I am grateful... - 1/1/2008 9:34:11 PM   
Imenuff

 

Posts: 670
Joined: 3/23/2007
Status: offline 		Juliana and Barbara G, I look forward to the next installments on each of your books.

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Shalom(May you be at peace in Body, Mind,& Spirit)

I'menuff
Post #: 121
RE: BOOKS for which I am grateful... - 1/2/2008 3:14:45 PM   
J1937

 

Posts: 703
Joined: 6/25/2007
From: Austria/Europe
Status: offline 		Thanks for the incentive, Betty! I needed that. If you bear with me, I will first tell you the very personal story which is responsible for my having a certain emtional barrier when talking about "Prayers of the Cosmos" (much as I value the book).
D., who was then an American friend of mine, gave me the book and I took it home with me. I found to be true what is announced in the preface: "Take care, reader; although this book is short, it contains the seeds for a revolution" (my re-translation).
Soon afterwards, I found out that the book existed in German. I got it and returned the English original to D., having no need for the English version any more, explaining why I sent it. To my great surprise, she was offended... (That is why I am looking forward to the after-life: there will be no more misunderstandings). I am going to get another copy in English for being able to quote...

Now for another installment (courtesy of Edda, once more).

"Give us this day our daily bread"
becomes
"Grant what we need each day in bread and insight:
subsistence for the call of growing life".

Juliana
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Post #: 122
RE: BOOKS for which I am grateful... - 1/2/2008 6:36:36 PM   
Hildegard

 

Posts: 2273
Joined: 8/30/2006
From: Chicago
Status: offline 		Thank you, Juliana!

This petition is important to me since I, and probably most, would like provisions, material and spiritual, for at least a week if not the year. Yet we are taught to ask just for the needs of THIS day, trusting that what we need will be provided each day. It fits with living one day at a time.

Edda                         

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Post #: 123
RE: BOOKS for which I am grateful... - 1/3/2008 10:45:44 PM   
Imenuff

 

Posts: 670
Joined: 3/23/2007
Status: offline 		Juliana, Thank you for continuing. So often our simplified translation seems to focus on our "material needs." The concept of daily asking for the "insight" we need for that day is a very powerful one, truly a prayer for the subsistence we need for the call of growing life. Food only feeds the body. To be whole, the spirit also must be given the food (insight) it too needs to remain healthy.

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Shalom(May you be at peace in Body, Mind,& Spirit)

I'menuff
Post #: 124
RE: BOOKS for which I am grateful... - 1/4/2008 6:45:08 AM   
Audur

 

Posts: 48
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Wabi Sabi
 
Imperfection

The most valued bowls for tea ceremony are irregularly shaped, and some have gold patches here and there accentuating (rather than concealing) damage suffered at the hands of long-ago owners.
Asymmetry and irregularity allow the possibility of growth, but perfection chokes the imagination.        
                                                                             - Donald Keene
 
My imperfections and failures are as much a blessing from God as my successes and my talents and I lay them both at his feet.
 
                                                                             -Mahatma Gandhi
 
Better a diamond with a flaw than a pebble without.
                                                                             - Confucius
 
Certain flaws are necessary for the whole. It would seem strange if old friends lacked certain quirks. 
                                                                             - Goethe

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What is understood need not be discussed.
Post #: 125
RE: BOOKS for which I am grateful... - 1/5/2008 5:48:14 AM   
Imenuff

 

Posts: 670
Joined: 3/23/2007
Status: offline 		Barbara G Thank you so much for continuing Wabi Sabi! The quote on "Imperfection" from Keene is especially powerful!! I know that I will use it often. It follows so much in line with the concept "In my WEAKNESS is my STRENGTH. My weaknesses are what I can give to the Holy One and allow the Holy One to care for them. Practically, it reminded me of Christmas last year (2007). This time the traditional family Christmas dinner, which I have had for the past almost 30 years was far from "Picture Perfect" because of plumbing problems that started on the 23rd and weren't solved until after noon on the 24th. There just was not enough time left to "create" the "picture perfect" Christmas dinner, but that was OK. What there was time to do, got done peacefully but what there wasn't time for was let go of, also peacefully. As my Niece so aptly put it, "It's all about spending time with and enjoying the family." It is always gift to see how much all spiritualities have in common, at their core.

Edda, blessings on your prayer group.

_____________________________

Shalom(May you be at peace in Body, Mind,& Spirit)

I'menuff
Post #: 126
RE: BOOKS for which I am grateful... - 1/5/2008 2:12:00 PM   
Audur

 

Posts: 48
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Betty: In my eyes you pointed out a very important theme, in weakness lies strength. It´s said easily but it´s so hard to live. It takes so much courage to be vunerable and show the "cracks" and even better see something good in them.

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What is understood need not be discussed.
Post #: 127
RE: BOOKS for which I am grateful... - 1/7/2008 10:31:03 PM   
Imenuff

 

Posts: 670
Joined: 3/23/2007
Status: offline 		Dear Barbara G,
quote:

in weakness lies strength. It´s said easily but it´s so hard to live. It takes so much courage to be vunerable and show the "cracks"
Several years ago, I read a book in which the general concept was that each of us as individuals might as well admit our weaknesses and be open about them because anyone who has ever lived with us or worked with us already knows them anyway. And yet it is so true, I am sure any of us could readily list the weaknesses of the family members we live with. I am also sure that my family at least, could readily list my weaknesses. As Nouwen says, "We are all wounded healers."

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Shalom(May you be at peace in Body, Mind,& Spirit)

I'menuff
Post #: 128
RE: BOOKS for which I am grateful... - 1/8/2008 3:55:31 PM   
J1937

 

Posts: 703
Joined: 6/25/2007
From: Austria/Europe
Status: offline 		As Edda has kindly sent me another one of Neil Douglas-Klotz´versions from Aramaeic, the language which Jesus spoke, let me pass it on to you.

I am grateful for finding new meaning in what I have got so much used to that the words tend to lose significance for me. Going back to the original, beyond the Greek translation, I find myself able to link the words with my personal experience. Here is one of the versions (there are several, Aramaeic being such a rich language which functions on various levels):

"Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us" becomes

"Loose the cords of mistakes binding us,
as we release the strands we hold of others´guilt".

To me, the Greek version is abstract and therefore pale, whereas the imagery in the original makes one
almost physically feel what is said.

Juliana
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Post #: 129
RE: BOOKS for which I am grateful... - 1/9/2008 9:53:57 AM   
Imenuff

 

Posts: 670
Joined: 3/23/2007
Status: offline 		Juliana, Dear, You have now reached the part that I have taken "poetic license" with for at least the past 25 years.
quote:

"Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us"
It was about that time that a book was suggested by my then spiritual companion. The title was We Dare to Say Our Father. It had such a profound effect that this prayer has never been said the same by me since, even during Mass. In English it becomes "Help me learn to forgive others as You have forgiven me." In the Aramaic translation which you have posted, it would become "Help me to release the strands I hold of others' guilt, as You have loosened the cords of mistakes binding me."

Initially, when involved in a new small group where the prayer is said, I am always stopped afterward and asked what I said. Knowing me as well as I do, there is no way I can truthfully say and honestly mean the words as they are translated in English or Aramaic. I would hope that the Holy One NEVER forgive me as I forgive others whether that be on a family, community, church, country, or worldwide level. I do agree, the Aramaic is a much more powerful translation.

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Shalom(May you be at peace in Body, Mind,& Spirit)

I'menuff
Post #: 130
RE: BOOKS for which I am grateful... - 1/9/2008 11:13:14 AM   
J1937

 

Posts: 703
Joined: 6/25/2007
From: Austria/Europe
Status: offline 		Betty, Dear, This is getting interesting! Apparently you understand the "as" as meaning "to the degree in which...". I have never seen it that way - "as" having so many different meanings - and I now wonder how the German translation has rendered it. (I will have to wait until I get back home; unfortunately the English edition of "Prayers of the Cosmos" was not to be had at Vienna´s "British Bookshop").

Juliana
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Post #: 131
RE: BOOKS for which I am grateful... - 1/9/2008 11:54:17 AM   
Hildegard

 

Posts: 2273
Joined: 8/30/2006
From: Chicago
Status: offline 		Betty, Juliana, may I add my 5 cents! The Latin says "sicut" and the German "wie", neither imply to me a degree of forgiveness. We can never forgive in the same way God does, only the way a human being can!

Edda

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Post #: 132
RE: BOOKS for which I am grateful... - 1/9/2008 5:24:29 PM   
Imenuff

 

Posts: 670
Joined: 3/23/2007
Status: offline 		Juliana and Edda, First off, Juliana, you did not translate something incorrectly. Edda, dear, there is no way I would ever begin to believe that I could forgive the same way that God does. This is just something that I have totally tucked into my own spirituality that resonates for me, especially when there has been a totally unjust situation involved. Perhaps it goes a little to Paul when he said "In my weakness is my strength.(My weakness is what I give to the Holy One)." If I have been involved in a situation that has resulted in a deliberately unjust resolution in my behalf, knowing myself well enough that some of these situations have been particularly difficult to forgive, I use "poetic license" and substitute "help me to learn to forgive others as you have forgiven me." This reminds me and calls me to that little saying "WWJD" not just What Would Jesus Do, but what has the Holy One ALWAYS DONE ON MY BEHALF? "What you have been given, give as gift."

Edda, Dear, Mass is at 6 a.m. tomorrow morning. Know that you and Leon will be held in prayer for peace, strength, and healing love.

_____________________________

Shalom(May you be at peace in Body, Mind,& Spirit)

I'menuff
Post #: 133
RE: BOOKS for which I am grateful... - 1/9/2008 6:33:38 PM   
Hildegard

 

Posts: 2273
Joined: 8/30/2006
From: Chicago
Status: offline 		Dear Betty, thank you for your remembrance at mass tomorrow! We truly appreciate your support and care!

As to my previous post - I was just agreeing with you!

Love,  Edda

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Peace and joy!
Post #: 134
RE: BOOKS for which I am grateful... - 1/11/2008 2:31:30 PM   
J1937

 

Posts: 703
Joined: 6/25/2007
From: Austria/Europe
Status: offline 		Dear Betty, I was not disagreeing, either! To me, it is quite natural that we should have diffferent approaches to and interpretations of what Jesus said, according to our differing experience, character, mentality, Enneagramm types... And no doubt it is important that we should feel personally addressed by Scripture.
As you have noticed, I am fascinated by the power of language (that is why I chose my training as a linguist - and it is probably the one gift I have and can share). What I have wanted to point to, is the important role translations play with Scripture, liturgy, even theology.

Let me tell you a little personal story to illustrate this.
When I was in England some years ago to attend a conference on Thomas Merton, I heard the liturgy in English for the first time. When the priest addressed the people saying, "Lift up your hearts!" I was so surprised that they should respond by saying, "We have lifted them up." (To me this sounded like "o.k., we have done what you have told us to do".)
In German, the answer to "Erhebt Eure Herzen!" is, "Wir haben sie beim Herrn", which means "We have got them with the Lord, they are already there, we are connected with him anyhow". This may seem like splitting hairs to some; personally, I think we cannot become too sensitive where such vital attitudes are concerned.

Namaste! Juliana
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Post #: 135
RE: BOOKS for which I am grateful... - 1/11/2008 10:19:00 PM   
Hildegard

 

Posts: 2273
Joined: 8/30/2006
From: Chicago
Status: offline 		Juliana, I never paid attention to the different translations. Acutally, in these days of concern about more literal translation, the German translation is closer to the Latin, "Habemus ad dominum". This does change the meaning of the words.  I, too, pay attention to what words mean and often ask how others define what they mean by a certain word.  Is this and "Austrian" condition???

Edda

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Post #: 136
RE: BOOKS for which I am grateful... - 1/19/2008 11:15:44 PM   
Imenuff

 

Posts: 670
Joined: 3/23/2007
Status: offline 		Juliana and Edda, Perhaps we would all be much better served if we were more concerned about the particular meaning an individual has in his/her usage of a word. When there is face to face communication, it is a theory that 97% of all communication is done non-verbally. So very often, what an individual is saying with their body language has absolutely no connection with the words they are using. Sometimes, the simple statement "What I am hearing you say...." can allow the other to clarify his/her actual meaning. Sometimes it seems we all live in the age of the Tower of Babel and completely misunderstand what the other is saying but you both remind us that at least we can attempt to clarify. You both have my tremendous admiration for your fluency in English since it is not the native language of either of you.

_____________________________

Shalom(May you be at peace in Body, Mind,& Spirit)

I'menuff
Post #: 137
RE: BOOKS for which I am grateful... - 1/19/2008 11:16:52 PM   
Imenuff

 

Posts: 670
Joined: 3/23/2007
Status: offline 		Barbara G, I miss your continuation of Wabi Sabi. Please continue when you have a chance.

_____________________________

Shalom(May you be at peace in Body, Mind,& Spirit)

I'menuff
Post #: 138
RE: BOOKS for which I am grateful... - 1/20/2008 9:38:45 PM   
Hildegard

 

Posts: 2273
Joined: 8/30/2006
From: Chicago
Status: offline 		Thank you, Betty! Even if English is your native language misunderstandings happen since English isn't spoken the same way in different English-speaking countries, and I am not just talking about pronounciation! The results are often amusing. An American woman was met with a blank look when asking for thumb tacks. Drawing pins was the needed term. How about asking for napkins and being handed diapers? Who ever thinks of the many meanings of "fix" in colloquial American English? An English woman was asked to "fix" the table. She walked around and around and finally said that she didn't find anything broken! How would she have known that fixing the table meant setting it, or fixing a meal preparing it and fixing a plate filling it with food! 

Edda                                                

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Post #: 139
RE: BOOKS for which I am grateful... - 1/21/2008 2:48:31 AM   
J1937

 

Posts: 703
Joined: 6/25/2007
From: Austria/Europe
Status: offline 		Thank you, Betty, for clarifying things as well as for the compliment! In connection with talking about "Love Language 1" on this thread, namely words of affirmation, cultural differences have already been mentioned: we do not easily pay compliments here, whereas they seem to be ever so common in the USA. That is probably why I have not thanked  you yet for your affirmative words on my language skills. If I have any, thanks are mostly due to the English teacher of my highschool years, a nun, who taught us the language in such a loving way, calling us her "girlies", and to the fact that I had to earn money for going to university, working in a holiday camp, a hospital and a college in England.

Thank you, Edda, for the examples which you have contributed! Oh yes, pitfalls and misunderstandings lurk everywhere -  at best they are amusing, at worst embarrassing or even painful...

Juliana
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